Curse

Falconer · Jun 18, 2005, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Okay, I've been seeing a lot of comments about this in MANY different threads. Typically of the nature of you should NEVER bring troll unguent or insert other class skill here.

A lot of people knee-jerk and state you should never bring self-healing and basically accuse those who do it of not having the teams motives at heart.

Others go overboard and seem to think you should never leave home without their security blanket.

The conditions I seem to note which come into play when deciding (and yes in some organized builds I've been asked to bring troll unguent or similar, in lieu of another team support skill).

I. Are you expected to be able to operate independantly.
EG: flag/relic runner. This is a very strong condition for bringing self-heals, as well as self-protection buffs such as stances. Given many teams, this is also a strong contender to pack some conditoin hex/removal. (EG: purge signet on a w/mo runner... can use it on yourself... or your party monk in trouble).

II. Team composition.
2 monks and 6 damage dealers... then some of those damage dealers should probably be packing supplementary self heals. ESPECIALLY THE ONES LIKELY TO BE TAKING DAMAGE. Also keep in mind it's not very hard to shutdown a single healer... in which case the other healer normally needs to focus on keeping himself and the other monk alive first, everyone else second.

III. Incendental damage... is your setup likely to result in a lot of people taking incendental damage. Case in point is a build using wards or similar effects which pin people in place. AoE skills love this kinda of problem. The point of this is to OVERLOAD the primary healer(s) and run them out of energy and force them to triage.
Warriors also suffer from this since they have little pick in where they fight, and must oftentimes fight on enemy terrain and in clusters. In these cases... something like healing signet can take a huge load off the primary healer... as well as enable a build to engage in 'ninja ops' (ganking the enemies priest by yourself while everyone else guards yours for example). Or pressuring an enemy monk into retreating while you chase him out of the range of your own healers.

IIIa. Also a lot of people like to intentionally inflict a lot of incendental damage in order to overload the monks... yeah monk can chain cast condition removal... but if he's doing so he's not using a lot of his protection skills.. Case in point of this would be people who like to spread poison far around. (8dps per person.. lets say you keep 5 people poiisoned, that's 40dps right there, not including the extra damage from the actual bowshots which should be in the 15-30dps range by themselves, and that's just from one character).
If your build is susceptible to this kind of systemic overload, then dispersed heals can help out a bit. If placed on people in the build who can conveniently use them.

This is the category I feel rangers and warriors most often fall under. They don't need a lot of healing... meaning a self-heal for them doesn't need to be strong and sustained. As long as the activation isn't overly costly and doesn't require diversion of attribute points it's considerable. But team composition should dictate as well as other skill cost/benefit considerations.

IV. is your defensive skill dual use?
Case in point, armor of mist... okay +24 armor good stuff (especially for a 60 armor ele)... but 33% speed boost also. Which has it's own big benefits.
Whirling defense is not only defensive but offensive (11 points armor ignoring damage per missed wand/arrow to anything around you... it's a poor mans balthazar's aura... I've used this in PvP while trapping (people like to try and interupt a trapper with wands) as well as while farming casters.
Ether feast not only a heal. But a cheap 5 energy sap from the target (that's one less spam heal the monk is going to cast). Mesmers tend to get a lot of TLC in the early game and I find tend to take a good deal of incendental damage as people try to shut them down. The exact kind of non-focus fire where a self-heal can help take a load off the monks.

V. it's an actual TEAM healing skilll....
Only 2 skills I can think of fall into this category of non-monk heals.
Healing spring, and necromancer wells. They can't replace monk healing but they can certainly augment it, and even give the monks a place to run to while they're trying to save their own hides.

VI. Are you the teams rezzer?
In this case, you will be focused and this touches on earlier. If the other side sees you rezzing you will get tender loving attention... especially if you're saving the monks. It's standard doctrine to kill the rezzers after the monks in many cases. Self-heals are important here because normally you will be rezzing a monk... so your team is already a monk down. Strong contenders here are protection buffs, self-healing, as well as running skills to string the other team out.
Case in point: the team rezmer... the 5second distortion.. can easily be the difference between getting the rez off and the axe warrior nailing it with disrupting chop.

Of a related nature, but the kinds of strategies I tend to see in builds in order to deal with the healers. (my personal feeling is that monks are overpowered if you feel you need to bring 2, 3, or more of them when there's 6 classes).
Spike damage: monks can't heal the target in time. No need to attack the monks first in this build. This was the flavour of the week for a short time there.
Kill the monks: classic, just use the fact that monks self-heals are a lot weaker than their team heals. Light disruption plus good teamwork can kill them off first and start the chain reaction kill.
Disable the monks: Get a top-notch mesmer or ranger on each of the monks and stop them from casting (energy denial works well here). The rest of the team either kills a monk, or kills a squishy damage dealer (EG: an elementalist, to lessen the load on their own monks).
Systemic Overload: simply do so much damage everywhere that the monks can't heal everything and things need to be triaged. This also has the hallmark of running the monks out of energy the hard way. EG: they simply run out of healing power.

So recap... depending on your build... self-heals on select people can be a game saver. But it depends heavily on what is expected out of the players, as well as it's intended fight style and team composition. Self-heals are simply a skill tool to be used at the right place, and the right time. Beware their overuse.. if in doubt, you probably shouldn't have it. If you need to re-align your attribute points... it's probably not going to help. But again in the right cases, they can be a big help.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Jun 18, 2005, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Yeah, I'm hating this trend of people telling others that self heals are bad and this emphasis on damage damage and more damage only. Oh and the too heavy reliance on monks that people are endorsing. It makes for a very boring cookie cutter team build.

I honestly think that if everyone carried a self heal of some sort, it would help lift the burden off the monk a lot...sure you may not be the primary target most of the time but you WILL take damage somehow.

Neo-LD · Jun 18, 2005, 11:47 PM // 23:47

problem with self heals is that they are never as good as actual monk spells. Ex. troll unguent = healing breeze with 2 second cast. But yes self heals are ok, taking up 1 dang spot cant hurt that much.

Kishin · Jun 19, 2005, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Falconer raises some really good points, especially with the mentioning of relic runners and incidental damage,the second of which i've always been a strong proponent of. Yes, condition removal is ridiculously easy and spammable ( a fact which slightly miffs me), but laying down a large number of conditions/hexes works not only to potentially force a monk to overextend themself, but also rattles their cages a bit. This may not be true in more experienced monks, but I've seen monks notice all the pink and brown down arrows on their teams life bar and start panicking, at which point they lose all sense of energy management and set themselves up for a very dangerous situation.

The problem is that the people most likely to carry self heals are the people who are the least likely to need them: ie. Rangers and Warriors. A lot of people in particular are hung up on Troll Unguent, even trying to use it as a damage sponge. The fact of the matter, unless, as Falconer pointed out, you are caught rezzing, no one is really going to care enough to try and kill you if you are one of these professions (unless you're proving to be an insane disrupter or something similar), and that incidental damage is generally not enough to kill you. If they are paying attention to you however, your self heals are most likely going to be useless. Unguent has a three second cast and *will* get shut down by anyone watching you, and your own ability to heal yourself (as someone already pointed out) is vastly inferior to a monk's. A monk also has a good idea of who's taking the brunt of the enemy's offensive, and knows enough not to waste time on the life bars of those who aren't taking a steady pounding, unless they're in imminent danger of falling. Likewise, you shouldn't worry about damage on you that isn't a) being sustained or b) 50% or more of your health in one burst or c) in the case of conditions/hexes, impairing your ability to do your job.

Likewise, the classes who could use said self heals generally have their skillsets completely tied up in other activities, and sacrificing a slot would mean impairing their ability to carry out their prescribed role. This, to me, is part of a larger concern that self heals engender, which basically boils down to passivity. Every moment you spend healing yourself is a moment not spent working to bring your team closer to victory by doing your job, and this in turn saps your momentum. Fighting defensively is not necessarily a bad thing (In fact, the HoH basically requires it), but once you start doing it, you start losing momentum, while the enemy continues to push at you and gain ground. This generally leads to a greater possibility of your team being overwhelmed in one area or another, and all it takes is one chink in your armor for someone competent to exploit it.

Basically, the way I look at it is this. Every second I spend healing myself takes my attention away from my opponents, and in that time I am missing out on the opportunity to lend a telling interrupt or harassh the target with energy drain/conditions/hexes, or even attempt to put them six feet under in the most expedient manner. That, for me, simply won't do. A team wants you there to do your job, not worry about your health. Fulfilling your role in a team in its own way is taking the pressure off your monk.

theclam · Jun 19, 2005, 07:04 AM // 07:04

It's pretty easy for a couple Mesmers to shutdown two Monks. Then your team is screwed if they don't have a way of keeping themselves alive. I say that most builds should have some way of keeping themselves alive without a Monk.

Chaynsaw · Jun 19, 2005, 12:58 PM // 12:58

If you don't trust your healers enough to do your job, either 1) your healers suck or 2) you are not focused enough to do your job. Either way, you should not bet on yourself to win.

My opinion is that you should not waste (too much) time healing yourself. If it can be helped, it will be helped. Rather than focus on weak self-healing, I would focus on + to armor skills that benefit from one's normal skill distribution... those skills actually do alleviate the monk of some pressure when it comes to healing.

Other than that, the best way you can help a monk out is to kill as many as you can, quickly and decisively.

Old Dood · Jun 19, 2005, 01:03 PM // 13:03

As a W/Mo I always take at least two monk skills with me. That is Rebirth and Healing Breeze. Sometimes I add to that Heal Party. I have saved many of missions/quests by having Rebirth (and sprint lol). Also when there is no way for me to get to the fighting and the spells casters have to "shoot" at bad guys from a distance I can heal in the back ground. Being in the middle of a melee it is nice to have your own self heal for many reasons. Main reason is to run away and heal to come back and Rebirth everyone else.

Chaynsaw · Jun 19, 2005, 01:07 PM // 13:07

I should add that when I say self-heals are teh sux, I do mean so exclusively for PvP. Certain PvE missions are exponentially more difficult when the team does not try to protect itself.

tmkhufu · Jun 19, 2005, 02:27 PM // 14:27

arena - bring them
tournament - don't

ICURADik · Jun 19, 2005, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Healing Spring = 250 aoe team only healing for 10 energy(4 if you've got 14 expertise) and a 2 second cast

Troll Unguent = 180 self only healing for 5 energy(2 if you have 13 expertise) and a 3 second cast

I hope you see why many people consider those using Troll Unguent to be selfish and frankly wasteful. If you want to help your healers out cast healing spring and stand next to them.

Neo-LD · Jun 19, 2005, 07:37 PM // 19:37

you kinda forgot to mention the long cooldown, and easy interupt that goes along with healing spring. Not to mention the AoE seems to 1/2 as big as heal area (not good) But anyways yea, unguent sucks, but so does healing spring.

Bringing one self *defense* is fine as long as it is not replacing a vitally impotrant skill. A self defense skill may include whirling defense, healing breeze, distortion, troll unguent etc. Basically you never use it unless you are being nuked, or have some mild damage that you were accidentally dealt that your monks are apparently to busy to heal.

BrokenSymmetry · Jun 19, 2005, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by ICURADik

Healing Spring = 250 aoe team only healing for 10 energy(4 if you've got 14 expertise) and a 2 second cast

Troll Unguent = 180 self only healing for 5 energy(2 if you have 13 expertise) and a 3 second cast

I hope you see why many people consider those using Troll Unguent to be selfish and frankly wasteful. If you want to help your healers out cast healing spring and stand next to them.

Healing Spring does more healing than any monk healing spells. Its main drawback is that it's "easily interrupted", meaning that it will be interrupted by any physical attack. So, in practice you can only use this if you also bring a self-defence skill, like Throw Dirt, or Whirling Defence. But if you do use it in that way, you have a very powerful healing that can be very helpful, especially in PUGs.

spikydude · Jun 19, 2005, 10:37 PM // 22:37

As a mesmer, I bring ether feast, it helps me heal my own hits.

timmo567 · Jun 20, 2005, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

problem with self heals is that they are never as good as actual monk spells. Ex. troll unguent = healing breeze with 2 second cast. But yes self heals are ok, taking up 1 dang spot cant hurt that much.

If I take out gale I can't interupt and stop them from running away. If I take out blinding flash I can't get warriors out of my face. If I take out one of my damage spells I'll only have 2 spells to do damage with, whats the point of being an elementalist then? If I take out one of my energy management skills (I have 2) I'll constantly be out of energy. My last skill is rez, and I'd rather be able to bring a dead teammate back to life then heal my self a little.

Most people have worked on their build for a long time and most can't do their job if they take out a skill to heal themselves

ElderAtronach · Jun 20, 2005, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Without knowing your full skill set, its hard for me to comment directly, but what about aura of restoration? 10 mana, lasts 60 seconds, and heals you 300%+ of the mana cost each time you cast... I don't have as much experience using elementals, but I do know that they get some serious hate right next to the monks... I would think easing some pressure off your team's monks when you suffer incidental damage would be a good thing.

Rajamic · Jun 20, 2005, 04:59 AM // 04:59

In all honesty, all the self-heals outside of Monk and Necro are just underpowered and useless.

Troll Unguent - Similar to Healing Breeze, except it is self-target only and has a hideous casting time. In the heat of battle, if you get to where you need it, you'll probably be dead before it starts.

Healing Signet - barely decent power (120 at 12 tactics), questionable casting time, doubles damage recieved while casting. You'll probably take more than half the damage you heal while activating it. And it has a 4 second recharge.

Ether Feast - Heals about as much as Healing Signet, but has an 8 second recharge. Steals 5 mana, and that's about it's only use.

Aura of Restoration - heals up to 350% of the mana cost of spells. Long lasting, but very weak. At 12 Energy, you'll get 88 health from a 25 mana spell, which most likely took 3+ seconds to cast.

They all rock Pre-searing, but I can't really justify bringing any of them, unless you have no confidence in you group's healer.

Ollj · Jun 20, 2005, 09:19 PM // 21:19

i read yout starting post till the phrase "damage dealers" then all i could do is laught at you.

RaK · Jun 20, 2005, 09:24 PM // 21:24

I agree, and I don't agree

I agree because:
Honestly, I think everyone should bring a self heal, you can not be dependent on other people, and healing yourself get's the timing how you want it, also, there won't be anyone to blame but yourselves. Though it stalls some damage time, it still helps the monk a lot. If the monk die, what are you going to do?

I disagree because:
Most of the time, people only attack monk so it may be intended for monks to pack self heals themselves. Depending on the foe's build, they will either attack the monk or the other casters.

Spark · Jun 20, 2005, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Self heals suck. Aura of Restoration, are you kidding me? I'm assuming you are talking about Tombs here, and what good does a crappy 17 (1s cast) or 80 (3-5s cast) point heal help against say 4 chain lightnings doing 135 each? Or against the meteor shower doing 130 and knocking you down, or the huge damage backfire, or, or, or....

Self heals suck. If you are brining a defensive skill it better be DAMN good, (Armor of Mist/Storm Chaser is GREAT for relic runs, Obsidian Flesh prevents a ton of damage) but even when I play my monk I would tell people not to equip Aura of Restoration. It doesn't help me heal at all, its just wasting their skill slot whch might have helped us take down their offense which DOES help me heal.

I just don't get how everyone keeps thinking about 'the poor monk'. WTF? There is a reason there are different classes with different roles. If the elementalists and warriors take out an enemy damage dealer that goes a helluva lot farther than asstacular healing.

Aalric · Jun 20, 2005, 10:03 PM // 22:03

I have no idea where you read that you should not take self-healing, but I think that it is a stupid idea. Very often, monks in your goup do not heal, get the timing right, or simply might not have the energy at the moment. Which means that you die. And, quite frankly, though people love to pretend otherwise, it's your own fault. Shouting at the monks will get you no-where. You need to be able to heal yourself whenever you feel like it.